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2.2 Discussion Board I: Reflection (Required to earn certificate)
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Posted by CUNY Mindset Initiative on March 11, 2024 at 10:58 am💬  Discussion:
- What is the purpose of higher education? What is its value? What are your thoughts on requiring students to take General Education courses outside their chosen field of study? What purpose does it serve? What is its value?
- What are your thoughts on the sentiment that some students bring motivation with them into their learning & some do not; where does the responibility lie when it comes to student motivation? What is the relationship between student engagement & student motivation?
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In my philosophy of education class we take on the purpose of teaching math when we read Plato’s Republic. When I ask why require everyone to learn math (arithmetic), usually the first response is for practical use, whether at work or everyday life. Then I keep asking for what else… and eventually we get to abstract, logical thinking… which as it turns out (for Plato) is akin to engaging in dialectic or philosophy later on.
…arithmetic has a very great and elevating effect, compelling the soul to reason about abstract number, and rebelling against the introduction of visible or tangible objects into the argument… -Plato
Going back to higher education, I think it is about finding the connections and skills across different disciplines, in a way that is usually not done in high school or college prep.
I like the framework of education as ongoing and students as contributors rather than consumers. What could be good ways of learning how students see themselves and their purpose in college? This seems like an important starting point.
@sethlehman I’ve wondered about this too and agree with @fpeetz that it’s probably a cyclical process.
When reading this prompt, I interpreted it more about students’ motivation before the semester starts. For example, some students may have had negative experiences in school and/or specific subjects that make them less motivated to learn… and make them feel like they don’t really belong… even before they first walk into the classroom or click on the online class link. How can we turn this around?
What are some ways for students to “understand why they need to understand the material”? What have some of you tried?
Something I’ve been thinking about since attending Michael Mandiberg’s talk on this at the CUNY Teaching & Learning Conference is co-designing learning objectives with students. learning objectives are usually already set for each course, but if students can contribute to them (with the instructor also connecting them to existing objectives), then this can potentially help the student and instructor grow in understanding and agency.
Attachments:
You must be logged in to view attached files.Taking a cross-cultural perspective, is higher education and a liberal arts education something more unique to U.S. education? What would it be like and what would be missing if the trajectory was directly from high school to a specialized degree such as law school?
I ask this because many of our students come from different backgrounds and from families that may not be familiar with the U.S. college system. I speak from personal experience. As an immigrant and first-generation college student, my parents were confused about what a college degree was for as it wasn’t as specialized as what they knew from home.
Has anyone encountered similar experiences or have advice on how to think about higher education coming from a different educational system?
@markelakhosrowshahi @sethlehman
Yes to engaging students! This brings me back to an earlier thread. How can we engage the students, particularly those who may have had difficult educational experiences in the past? How do we show them that this course might be different?
One thing I appreciate about my undergraduate experience is the breadth of academic course offerings to choose from and being able to specialize in and undertake a more focused exploration of particular academic disciplines. Being required to take a number of courses outside of my chosen areas of study exposed me to different theories, approaches, and ways of thinking. I also learned how to examine topics from a range of disciplinary perspectives. Although I enjoyed and excelled in courses, such as algebra, astronomy, and sociology, I soon found that in addition to Spanish and French language and literature, the courses that appealed to me most, engaged with the disciplines of political science, economics, and linguistics. Had I not been required to take courses in math, science, art, humanities, history, and more, I most likely would not have been able to appreciate how certain disciplines relate to my own discipline.
There is a lot that I can do to increase student motivation and engagement. Even before my courses begin, I try to connect with students to find out more about them and their interests. I also ask students about their motivation and goals for the course. Whenever possible, I try to incorporate students’ interests into my lessons and show students how the course content is relevant to some of their stated interests. Though the dynamics of each class may differ, I try to remain consistent in bringing enthusiasm and passion to the subjects I teach and practicing the kind of innovation in the classroom that will activate, challenge, and inspire students to learn and excel.
This is a big question. When I went to college, the purpose of higher education was definitely to find out what I wanted to do. And, I definitely did some exploring / wandering considering various disciplines. I worry about this a lot. With the rising costs of higher ed, even within CUNY, I support guided pathways and helping students to focus on an education that will serve them. But I also worry that we ask them to focus too soon and they don’t have as many opportunities to find out about things they don’t know / discover new interests / learn to love something that they didn’t even know is a possibility. That’s why I love courses outside of the major. The single best course I took as an undergraduate was an Environmental Science course I took as a 2nd semester senior. It was required and I put it off until the last second. That course transformed my thinking, my relationship to my world, and I STILL think about that course all the time. It made an impact on how I live my life, how I align my values with my living, how I think about my research and scholarship. Do I teach biology? Nope. Do I work in the sciences? Not really (in a connected way, but not as my primary discipline). This is my hope for courses outside of a student’s major. But I also know often it doesn’t work out that way and moving through Gen Ed requirements can be a task-oriented, checklist expectation. I’d love to see CUNY think about Gen Ed in a different way that scaffolds and connects key skills across Gen Ed and that promotes integrative thinking. I could write a lot more about the purpose of Gen Ed, but those are my starter thoughts.
In my classroom, I see students who are highly motivated and students who are not. In ENG 101, a required class, there’s always a mix. I try to meet students who are not motivated more than half way. I recognize that some lack of motivation stems from previous educational experiences. Some students are coming to the class with low expectations about what a class and a teacher will do. They’ve been penalized and shaped by bad experiences. One class can’t overcome all of that. But, I try to reset and reframe the work of my class so that they can find a space where they want to grow. I’m not always successful, but I think the work I’ve done on Learning Mindsets has changed the tone of my classroom and that has changed some students’ motivation.I do think that motivation and engagement are deeply linked.
Prompt One. The purpose of higher education is to obtain skills and knowledge, but it is also to deepen critical thinking and broaden one’s perspectives. I agree that many students are carefully considering the cost of higher education in relation to courses that they may not have selected if they were not required to select them. I think that a well-rounded education is important, even if a student is intent on studying a particular technical skill. I will speak to this point from my own experience. I was an art major in one of the most competitive schools in the country for my undergraduate degree.
I was a little surprised that I had to take so many liberal arts courses. There were similar schools that did not require such courses. I have to say that I am glad that I had to take them. Not all of them resonated with me. But there was a good amount of course within certain categories. Taking those courses provided me with a well-rounded education. I believe that the experience and the knowledge itself was important. I also learned more about fields that I would not be likely to study.
Prompt Two. There are students that enter the program and are excited, but quickly lose momentum. Since I teach in a graduate program with a mix of Master’s students and Advanced Cert students, I see many students who are working a full-time job, have children or take care of elderly parents. I try to expend a great amount of energy when I teach, but some still keep the camera off or let the work pile up. I am very clear about my expectations, which are around showing up and being present.
There is a definite connection to engagement and motivation. That small percentage of students who do not engage or let work pile up are notified often. I use Navigate to text them and try all kinds of ideas to motivate those students who fall through the cracks. I find that they respond very well to peers, which is one of the pillars I’ve built into my courses. I also now let me tell me how they are going to ‘course correct’. Course correction does not include handing in work in a package at the end of the term. They must come up with a strategy to ‘course correct’ before it gets to that point.
- As many responders have already said above, higher education does not only serve as a means towards landing a respectful job in either industry or academic field or for increasing one’s qualifications but also shapes one’s perspective of life (from all aspects: social, financial, linguistic, cultural, etc.) and introduces that person to schools of thought that may differ from that person’s current understanding of the world. This way, one who acquires higher education has a greater tolerance and experience of those who think differently from that person.
The same claim applies to General Education courses: they expand one’s knowledge in various life topics, which can, at any moment in life, become applicable to the person’s life or job. Moreover, General Education courses serve as a “common ground” for students to share: Students come from different backgrounds and have different past experiences, approaches, cultures, etc. Having students take GenEd courses ensures that they share a common knowledge/reality “language” using which they can effectively think and participate in future classes they take.
- Every student has some type of motivation to take a course: to learn something new for oneself, to learn a new skill that will become applicable for life (e.g., to land a decent job), etc., but, unfortunately, many students do it for “the grade”. The latter is also a motivation type but one that is very trite and superficial. Remembering myself as an undergrad student (I got my B.S. in Computer Science from Brooklyn College,) the classes that motivated me the most (those that I found as interesting) were the most enjoyable and relatable, and, hence, the most memorable classes!
I believe both the instructor and the student are responsible for the level of motivation of the student: it is sad when the instructor doesn’t sufficiently motivate their students as for how important the learned subject is, doesn’t bring helpful real-life examples, etc., but even when an instructor decently motivates the students, the student still chooses whether to listen to lectures, whether to attend classes and, in general, whether to emotionally or mentally connect to the course. The reason I am saying this is that in every course I teach, despite trying my best to motivate my students, explain why the course is important, establish the learning objectives of the course, discuss how relevant every topic we cover is, bring examples, etc., there are always 1-2 students who choose to play games or watch YouTube videos during class 🙂 BTW, this phenomenon of students being glued to their devices during a lecture is especially prominent after the COVID-19. Every human has freedom of choice, so some students, regrettably, would choose to dedicate their energy to entrainment, regardless of how much effort the instructor would make to motivate them. In that sense, engaging students should increase one’s motivation level for one of several reasons, if not more:
- When the instructor asks a question to a student during the lecture to check if one understands the topic, the student will reroute their attention to crafting a suitable response and prevent the embarrassment that the student might experience if the answer is deficient.
- If a previous response that a student provided was indeed deficient, the implicit negative association/experience they had while providing a deficient answer will, subconsciously, motivate the student to prepare better before future lectures and to pay more attention during class.
- When participating in in-class group assignments, students will be motivated to do their best, partially also due to “peer pressure” that the group assignment itself would impose since doing ‘bad’ in group work would embarrass the student in front of his/her groupmates.
- When the instructor plays videos during the lecture that speak about the lecture’s topic, students’ attention should also reroute to listening to the video rather than using their phone, especially if the lights are dimmed and the instructor’s video plays at a high volume.
I like that you place the burden of motivation on both the student and the instructor, Miriam. There are good and bad apples in both groups! Ignoring, for a moment, the bad apples we’ll likely never reach (in both groups!), I appreciate the strategies you’re suggesting. I haven’t tried high volume videos in class, as I think a lot of students watch TikTok with the sound off and captions on. (How this is considered entertainment is lost on me, but I must just be too old!)
Like you, Elizabeth, I took a lot of classes unrelated to my major thanks to the program I was in which allowed me to take whatever I wanted (UVA’s Echols Scholars program, somewhat similar to CUNY-BA). I wonder if learning for the sake of learning is a privilege of the privileged… If so (and I must admit, it seems likely), that’s rather sad.
Do you find that many “lost” students do successfully course correct? I keep hounding mine, but honestly, very very few come around. I’ve tried peer accountability groups the last 2 semesters, with high hopes, but limited success in an online asynchronous course for nonmajors. I’d welcome any further thoughts on the subject!
Dear Kevin,
Thanks for your reply. I relate to the word ” hounding”. My success rate with getting them to a low passing is very good. I truly understand that asynchronous courses are different. I teach those in summer school. Last summer I had to hound a few students in a short period, a 5 week course (that is actually four weeks in truth). Most of them came around, but one of them did not. I could not even offer a low passing grade.
What has worked for me
I like the idea of peer accountability groups. I’ve used that in hybrid courses, but I assign a few strong volunteer leaders. The leaders voluntarily make themselves available to others. My students also use “What’s App?” so they can discuss assignments with each other. There’s some down sides to that, but I focus on how it’s become a more comfortable way for them to get in touch with each other.
I don’t know if you use Navigate, but it’s worked very well for me. There’s a texting feature within that system. I also use alerts in the system. I am not sure whether they work if you are not their advisor, but it entices some of them.
Underneath the behavior of avoidance or escape is pain or fear of failure. I think the students who have gotten lost are so far above their heads. The ones who are able to name it are better off. But they have to be willing to come back and show up.
I think the trick is to keep talking about this with each other. I’m going to try a few more things this year, but haven’t formulated them quite yet.This prompt took some thinking… College isn’t just a deep dive into a student’s major. General education requirements are designed to fracture a single-minded focus, revealing the interconnectedness of knowledge. A history course sheds light on the social issues the art or literature classes explore. Science labs teach manual skills that can be applied to analyzing political arguments. This intellectual cross-pollination equips a student to be an expert in one field but to think creatively and solve problems from unexpected angles. Of course, this is easier said than done. Interdisciplinarity, curriculum overload, and student motivation always factor in the issue of applicable knowledge or transferrable skills. Initiatives like this one allow for the diverse perspectives and methods of teaching.
I love the image that shows the objectives written in DIFFERENT languages, fonts, and colors. This kind of brick-a-brack methodology is very intriguing and promising! I dream of having students paraphrase the Objectives without using the same words, only synonyms. I have not actually done it yet, but I think I will work it in my Menti Polls this Fall. This is like intersectional thinking; the educator’s and student’s languages must find a compromise. It seems that once the common foundation is set, the rest of teaching and learning will follow a smoother path.
- As many responders have already said above, higher education does not only serve as a means towards landing a respectful job in either industry or academic field or for increasing one’s qualifications but also shapes one’s perspective of life (from all aspects: social, financial, linguistic, cultural, etc.) and introduces that person to schools of thought that may differ from that person’s current understanding of the world. This way, one who acquires higher education has a greater tolerance and experience of those who think differently from that person.
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